1996 Republican National
Convention1996 Republican National
Convention
Original transcription by Provancha &
Shelbourne
Copyright © 1996-7 The T Channel
DigitalTalkTV HYPERSCRIPT - KSDO AM 1130 Radio
1 Roger Hedgecock August 13th, 1996.
2
3 MR. HEDGECOCK: And good afternoon. Welcome to our
4 special edition of the Roger Hedgecock show. We are live here
5 at the San Diego Convention Center. We are live for the
6 Republican National Convention, 1996. And what a remarkable
7 evening yesterday. The speeches of the former president is the
8 speech of Nancy Reagan accompanying the video tribute to the
9 former president,
Ronald
Reagan, and the very moving way in
10 which she spoke of the long farewell. I think these memories
11 will be in the minds of the delegates, friends and, indeed,
12 people watching on television across the nation for quite a
14 Followed by -- and I can't believe something
15 followed it and had a bigger impact. That was the speech of
16 Colin Powell. We'd like to hear from you on that, 560-1130 in
17 the metro area.
18 We are here at
the Republican
National Convention, I will
19 say we will also be at the Democratic convention. We will be
20 in Chicago for the
Democratic
National Convention and all of the same
21 hoopla and the discussion from the Democratic point of view as
22 well on this talk show. So we will do that in a couple of
23 weeks in Chicago.
24 Tonight,
George
W. Bush, the governor of Texas,
25 will be the kickoff speaker, and then we will hear -- it's
26 going to be interesting tonight, from some people who are just
27 sort of ordinary folks in
San Diego. They're
called Main
28 Street Americans, and they're going to talk about what it
means
1 and they're going to tie together the concepts of the platform
2 to the everyday life that they have. And it's going to be very
3 interesting to hear from them.
4 We'll have a number of Congressmen and governors
5 talking about how states have taken the lead in issues like
6 welfare reform.
And then we're going to hear, of course, from
7 Susan Molinari and the keynote address. Usually, the keynote
8 address is on the first night, so a keynote was delivered
9 somewhat by
Colin
Powell , delivered eloquently and very well.
10 It was stuck in my eyes -- tour de force. No one else -- I
11 don't think there's any other Republican of any stature close
12 to Colin Powell, "You all know I'm for choice," and then moved
13 on to say what he was for as well and get the delegates to
14 applaud him.
15 If Pete Wilson or Bill Welt would have stood up and
16 said that, I don't think they would have been applauded. They
17 would have been booed. Since a number of Republicans across
18 the country are in favor -- are pro-choice folks and in favor
19 of abortion, so this is -- this is an interesting issue and it
20 was played out last night in that way and, I think, in a very
21 carefully way.
22 There's a tremendous number of vendors. They're
23 over there selling all kinds of things already. I don't know
24 how fast you can get Kemp Dole faces on a mug, but apparently
25 it's less than 24 hours. There's thousands of mugs over there
26 with these guys' face over there. I ran into -- caught up
27 with actually Ward Connelly, the regent of the University of
28 California, whose efforts on the -- whose efforts on the
1 regents have led them to confront the -- the real contradiction
2 between their racial policies on admission and the racial
3 ideals that they hold with regard to equal opportunity.
4 And indeed, two things have come into conflict.
5 They were actually letting people into the university on the
6 basis of their skin color and Ward Connelly, an
7 African-American, didn't like that. And particularly at the
8 University of Berkley, qualified applicants are barred so that
9 less qualified and competent other people can be admitted.
10 It's ridiculous.
11 And Ward Connelly, well, he had a concern. He was
12 fearful the Colin Powell would come into the convention center
13 and denounce 209, Proposition 209, which is the California
14 Civil Rights Initiative, of course. And Colin Powell, indeed,
15 says he was in favor of Affirmative Action, but he did not
16 denounce 209, which was a very interesting -- very interesting
17 thing. And in fact, Ward Connelly seemed greatly relieved.
18 You should hear what he told me last night. It
19 does not reinforce Prop 209. It does endorse Affirmative
20 Action. We have no problem with that because a decision came
21 down today from the Third District Court of Appeals, which
22 validated the title and summary of Dan Lundgren, because
23 "Affirmative Action is a term without meaning." So it will
24 not be forced into the destruction of Prop 209.
25 GUEST: That's right. That's right. So it's a
26 victory for us. So on that basis, I have no problem with the
27 general saying he supports
"Affirmative
Action ."
[SB873 -
Limits Affirmative Action ]
28 And Ward Connelly went on to discuss the speech
1 which he made, and I had advance copy of it, and seemed
2 genuinely moved by the story of Colin Powell's life said so
3 interestingly, just so movingly in that speech last night. But
4 Ward Connelly referred to the court of appeal that had decided
5 that the worth Affirmative Action will not be forced into the
6 Attorney General's summary of
"Proposition
209", the California Civil
7 Rights Initiative.
8 You'll remember that a very liberal superior court
9 judge decided he was going to rewrite the, quote, "objective,"
10 end quote, summary of Prop 209 that had been prepared by
11 Lundgren. He was going to rewrite it so that it more conformed
12 to the opponents of
"Proposition
209", and that did not happen. The court of
13 appeals said no.
14 And get this, this is something that is not said in
15 the papers very often. I don't know that I've ever read it.
16 It said that Affirmative Action as a phrase is nowhere
17 defined. It is not in law. It is not -- other than in the
18 executive order of LBJ back in 1964. It says the federal
19 government shall take
Affirmative
Action to, and listed some
20 things having to do with discrimination. There's no other
21 place. That's not law, it's not binding on the state or local
22 government.
23 This is nowhere else found in law this phrase. It
24 has come into the popular understanding, but then it's gotten
25 twisted. I don't know that two people can agree on what the
26 definition is and neither could the judges of this district
27 court of appeal. So as a consequence, the phrase Affirmative
28 Action, as in 209, will abolish
Affirmative
Action ^ bkmk, is
1 not going to be in there because
"Proposition
209" is not going to abolish --
2 if you're going to have educational programs, if you're going
3 to have assistance to individuals so that they can, what,
4 qualify for a test or do better on a -- on a qualifying test
5 to be a fire fighter, to get into the University of California,
6 whatever, those kinds of things, I don't have a problem with.
7 Maybe you do.
8 I have a problem with awarding a contract to build
9 a library, and they tell me I have to have two Filipino ditch
10 diggers or else I can't have the contract. And that's the kind
11 of stuff that's in those contracts now coming down from the
12 federal government, and it's really, really, really
13 ridiculous. That's 209. And that's Ward Connelly.
14 Today, you're going to meet some very, very
15 interesting people. The former vice-president Dan Quayle is
16 scheduled to come by . We're going to talk with a number
17 of people who are delegates to this convention. We're going to
18 bring you some of the information that has been disseminated
19 from the -- from the protestors outside the building and we're
20 going to talk to the kid who was expelled from school because
21 he had a knife.
22 Let's take a break. We'll come back. News is
23 next. We're live from the
Republican National
Convention
24 . AM 1130 Talk Radio.
25 (Break.)
26 MR. HEDGECOCK: And we are back live at the
27 Republican National Convention in our wonderful,
28 gorgeous
Convention
center. I've never been more proud of this
1 place, nor my small role in the effort putting this together
2 ten years ago. I don't know that we knew it was going to be
3 this big. It'll be twice as large the next time some
4 convention like this is held with the addition of the south
5 side of this.
6 I see a lot of protestors outside the building. I
7 want to talk about that, too, and what their points of view are
8 and we'll bring you some of the literature as well. In the
9 meantime, one of the groups that's been heard from lately are
10 People
for the Ethical Treatment of Animals.
11 Bruce Freiderich joining us.
12 BRUCE FREIDERICH: How you doing, Roger?
13 MR. HEDGECOCK: I'm doing well. What's up with
14 you?
15 BRUCE FREIDERICH: Well, we're here in San Diego.
16 It's a beautiful city. We're enjoying ourselves and we're
17 trying to call on the Republicans to put an excise tax on meat
18 products.
19 MR. HEDGECOCK: Tax on meat. Wait a minute. My
20 producer just screamed "yes." He's a guy that only eats
21 steaks. Why do you want to tax meats?
22 BRUCE FREIDERICH: It's time to make the real cost
23 of meat measure up with the nominal cost of meat.
24 MR. HEDGECOCK: What is the real cost of meat?
25 BRUCE FREIDERICH: Well, the real cost of meat just
26 in health care costs alone, the conservative for responsible
27 medicine estimates that meat costs this country almost $62
28 billion if you don't even include lost productivity due to
lost
1 work time. The three main killers are
Heart
disease, cancer
2 and stroke and all of those are strictly enhanced by a
3 meat-based
diet.
4 MR.
Hedgecock:
But you can't trace a meat-based
5 diet or meat directly to causing those things, can you?
6 BRUCE FREIDERICH: Oh, you can. Epidemiological
7 and clinical studies have shown very conclusively that eating a
8 meat-based diet increases your risk for those things. So for
9 example, if you take out all animal products cuts your risk by
10 more than 90 percent. But when you cut out the saturated fat
11 and your cholesterol, you lower your cholesterol level in your
12 body to below 150, which means you have a virtually zero
chance
13 of getting heart disease, whereas if you have -- you're eating
14 Meat, you have a
50 percent chance of getting heart disease.
15 MR. HEDGECOCK: If people make their own choice to
16 do that, where is that someone else's problem? In other words,
17 let me take this down to a more personal thing. If you eat
18 meat and you have a heart attack, why should that be your
19 problem? You've chosen not to.
20 BRUCE FREIDERICH: Absolutely. All I'm saying is
21 you should pay a little bit of the health care costs that are
22 impacting on our economy.
23 MR. HEDGECOCK: Wait a minute, I am paying my
24 health care costs. I have insurance. I pay it through the
25 employer. I am paying my health care costs.
26 BRUCE FREIDERICH: Right. Well, there's a reduced
27 GNP and there are attendant health care costs which are picked
28 up by the government and there are environmental costs.
1 California is experiencing a water shortage while more than
2 half of our water used in this country is used to raise animals
3 for food and we need to be looking for this.
4 MR. HEDGECOCK: You're serious about this.
5 BRUCE FREIDERICH: All we're advocating is a six
6 cents per pound tax on meats.
7 MR. HEDGECOCK: I thought for a while you were
8 putting me on. You're serious about this.
9 BRUCE FREIDERICH: We're quite serious.
10 MR. HEDGECOCK: You want to tax meat because you
11 don't like the impact of it as a food in health terms?
12 BRUCE FREIDERICH: Well, we don't like the impact
13 of meat-based diet on human health. We don't like the impact
14 of a meat-based diet on the environment, and we don't like the
15 impact of a meat-based diet.
16 MR. HEDGECOCK: That is like a gay marriage ^ bkmk,
17 and let me tell you what I mean by my statements. Some other
18 group, not you -- I'm sure some other group will be telling
me,
19 or my children, they have now been able to detect the screams
20 of vegetables as they are harvested and eating vegetables is
21 cruel and unusual. What we have to do is stop eating them or
22 have a tax on that, you know. Can't you see this logic getting
23 ridiculous pretty quickly?
24 BRUCE FREIDERICH: Well, I think the logic we're
25 using, Roger, is basically the same logic that the government
26 used when they decided to put excise taxes on alcohol and
27 tobacco. Now tobacco costs are about $50 billion a year.
28 MR. HEDGECOCK: Between tobacco and eating meat,
1 there's a much more provable link between tobacco and lung
2 disease, lung cancer than there is between eating meat and, you
3 know, heart disease.
4 BRUCE FREIDERICH: Well, you know, that's simply
5 not true. The American Meat Institute and the Dairy Council
6 will tell you that, but it's not true. And 20 or 25 years ago,
7 people were saying I don't think there's a link to tobacco.
8 And the tobacco industry continues to say there's not a link
9 between tobacco and lung cancer and the USDA and people like
10
Dr.
Benjamin Spock, among others, have come out and recognized
11 that our meat addiction in this country is, in fact, directly
12 responsible for these health care costs.
13 MR. HEDGECOCK: You're not really saying that meat
14 is addictive, are you?
15 BRUCE FREIDERICH: Well, yeah, actually, I do think
16 that meat is addictive.
17 MR. HEDGECOCK: Oh, no, Bruce, meat is not
18 addictive. It's like any other food.
19 BRUCE FREIDERICH: I don't want to devolve into a
20 discussion about semantics.
21 MR. HEDGECOCK: You said it was addictive. I find
22 that a shocking statement. Where is the scientific study that
23 says that?
24 BRUCE FREIDERICH: Well, it's more of a
25 sociological observation, Roger.
26 MR. HEDGECOCK: Yes.
27 BRUCE FREIDERICH: If you look at the fact --
28 MR. HEDGECOCK: In other words, you're an addict.
1 BRUCE FREIDERICH: If they recognize how obese they
2 are, recognize that their cholesterol levels are in oblivion,
3 and they're told -- just like when people are told they've got
4 to give up tobacco and they can't. You've got to give up this
5 meat eating and they can't.
6 MR. HEDGECOCK: Let me talk from my sociological
7 impression or whatever you said, people that don't want to give
8 up meat. Just entertain this possibility for a moment:
9 They're not giving up meat because they like it --
10 BRUCE FREIDERICH: And that's the same thing the
11 tobacco industry would say.
12 MR. HEDGECOCK: Bruce, that's enough. I can't take
13 anymore. Thank you very much for being on the show.
14 Completely out of his mind on this show. Man, can
15 you believe the people and the opinions they have? I am very
16 tolerant of opinions only for a certain length of time.
17 Are you the fellow who had a knife one day in the
18 wrong place at the wrong time?
19 GUEST: Yeah, that was a long time ago, year and a
20 half ago, actually.
21 MR. HEDGECOCK: You've grown up since then. You
22 used to be smaller, didn't you?
23 GUEST: I used to be less important, too.
24 MR. HEDGECOCK: And you never used to get
25 interviewed either. That's another thing that happened to
26 you.
27 GUEST: Yeah.
28 MR. HEDGECOCK: Now, you were -- what kind of knife
1 was it again that you had at high school?
2 GUEST: It was a Swiss army knife.
3 MR. HEDGECOCK: And they expelled you?
4 GUEST: Yes.
5 MR. HEDGECOCK: And there was a big hearing and all
6 that?
7 GUEST: Blah, blah, blah, blah.
8 MR. HEDGECOCK: Blah, blah, blah, blah. Whatever
9 happened to that? What is your life like now?
10 GUEST: My life now after the expulsion has opened
11 my eyes to the political field and the corruption in politics
12 today. That's why I am here today, Roger, because --
13 MR. HEDGECOCK: Yeah, what are you doing at the
14 convention? I was going to ask about that.
15 GUEST: I'd like to know myself.
16 MR. HEDGECOCK: Don't get started with this.
17 You've got the Youth Summer Pavilion thing. What are you doing
18 over there?
19 GUEST: Basically, we've been listening to speakers
20 and having bands there and concerts. We're supposed to have a
21 floor rally for the youth on Thursday.
22 MR. HEDGECOCK: So how do you feel about it? Are
23 you enthusiastic? Are you turned off?
24 GUEST: I'm enthusiastic. I kind of broke away
25 because I'm doing my own thing, mingling.
26 MR. HEDGECOCK: You're picking up girls, is what
27 that you're saying.
28 GUEST: More or less.
1 MR. HEDGECOCK: More or less? Exactly. I know
2 teenage malespeak. See, I have two teenagers. I understand
3 exactly what you're saying.
4 There's some good-looking women here.
5 GUEST: Yeah. I'd also like to say that I'm
6 addicted to meat, too.
7 MR. HEDGECOCK: Good for you.
8 GUEST: McDonald's, I'm there every day.
9 MR. HEDGECOCK: Thanks very much for dropping by.
10 GUEST: Thank you.
11 (Break.)
12 MR. HEDGECOCK: 560-1130. New York Mike, hello.
13 Hey, Mike.
14 GUEST: Hey, thanks for taking the call.
15 MR. HEDGECOCK: How are you?
16 GUEST: I'm okay. I want to say hi the people of
17 San Diego for a moment. You know, Sunday was an awesome day,
18 all those bikers in town. You know, we planned on 5,000; we
19 ended up with over 10,000. The California Highway Patrol --
20 MR. HEDGECOCK: Is that right?
21 GUEST: -- who did an awesome job, by the way.
22 They did the best they could. They stopped counting at 10,000
23 at 11:30 and they were still coming in. So we went way over.
24 The San Diego Police Department, you just can't thank them
25 enough. We know we were putting them out by putting this ride
26 together. It was amazing. It was just amazing and all the
27 people in San Diego, they shut down the freeway on and off for
28 about three and a half hours from 11:00 to 2:30.
1 And I know some of the people were waiting on the
2 sidelines, some of them were waving and giving us the thumbs
3 up. I want to thank everybody. The other part is it's been a
4 media black out. Aside from KUSI, the local guys --
5 MR. HEDGECOCK: The local guys did it?
6 GUEST: Yeah, and nothing else. Who else did it?
7 We made front page Denver, North and South Dakota, North and
8 South Carolina, Florida, D.C., C-SPAN, KUSI, nothing from the
9 normal -- you know, the CBS, ABC and NBC stuff.
10 MR. HEDGECOCK: And you were in the
Union-Tribune
11 as well.
12 GUEST: Were we?
13 MR. HEDGECOCK: Yes, there was a picture. There
14 was a picture, but it should have been national news. It
15 should have been on Good Morning America. I mean, it should
16 have been, you know, with all that.
17 GUEST: Right there. You know what, there wasn't
18 even a sig alert.
19 MR. HEDGECOCK: If 10,000 Harley's can't cause a
20 sig alert, this town's dead. There's no pulse.
21 GUEST: The main thing is we didn't protest
22 anything. We were here. And I'll tell you something, each
23 guy, each person on a motorcycle represented 100 votes --
there
24 was ten votes, there was a million votes. We were a
25 million-vote ride. That's who we are. That's what we
26 represented. I hope somebody pays attention.
27 MR. HEDGECOCK: Don't feel frustrated. I think you
28 got a lot of attention paid to you. I would have liked to see
1 a little more national attention.
Ben
Nighthorse Campbell
2 and the rest of those folks, that was great stuff.
3 Newt Gingrich got right down there. And I think that's why the
4 liberal media didn't cover it. It was Newt Gingrich and
5 Campbell. They don't like Campbell anymore because he switched
6 parties.
7 MR. HEDGECOCK: The American Indian Republican.
8 Forget Ben Nighthorse Campbell
9 GUEST: I wanted to thank everybody in this town
10 for really supporting this.
11 MR. HEDGECOCK: It was fun.
12 GUEST: The San Diego Police Department was
13 awesome.
14 MR. HEDGECOCK: Mike, it was a great event. You
15 did a great job. I wanted you to feel good about it. You
16 can't always get the press you want.
17 GUEST: That's right.
18 MR. HEDGECOCK: But you keep plugging.
19 GUEST: We did great, Roger.
20 MR. HEDGECOCK: You did great.
21 560-1130. Tonight, Rabbi Labin will be doing the
22 special benediction at the Republican National Convention live
23 at the San Diego Convention Center.
24 (Break.)
25 MR. HEDGECOCK: And we're back. 560-1130 is our
26 phone number. We'll get to calls here in a second. I want to
27 say hello to Rabbi
Daniel Labin, (Lapin).
28 Let's try this. Get Rabbi
Daniel Labin.
1 Welcome to the show. How are you?
2 RABBI LABIN: Great. Thanks. Great to be with
3 you.
4 MR. HEDGECOCK: You're going to give the final
5 benediction to the ceremony?
6 RABBI LABIN: I'm really very excited about that
7 because I've been advancing the cause of conservatism in the
8 Jewish community.
9 MR. HEDGECOCK: It's an uphill job, I would think.
10 RABBI LABIN: It's an uphill job, but we really --
11 we've really had some gratifying moments.
12 MR. HEDGECOCK: And let me ask you about where that
13 change is occurring and for what reason. Where do you see it
14 occurring and why?
15 RABBI LABIN: Well, mainly, I think because the
16 Jewish community is beginning to ask itself what it is doing.
17 If you think about it, we've been doing a lot to refute the
18 myths of Jewish intelligence, because what we've done is we've
19 gone to the Republicans for the last 30 years and said don't
20 worry, whatever you do, we'll always vote for you. Don't worry
21 what you do, there's nothing you could do that could ever make
22 us vote for you. And finally, Jews are beginning to see that.
23 MR. HEDGECOCK: That's an interesting point on the
24 practical level. Are there issues that are driving this
25 rethink?
26 RABBI LABIN: Here's the peculiar thing. They've
27 always said that Jews live like Episcopalians and vote like
28 Puritans. One, Jews live incredibly conservative lives. It's
1 just they want to have everybody else to have liberalism.
2 That's cruel. That lacks compassion and I think the Jewish
3 community should become more compassionate and observe the same
4 kind of lifestyle of all American citizens.
5 MR. HEDGECOCK: I've been interested in and maybe
6 perplexed by the attitude of most Jews in favor of abortion
7 rights. And I wonder, in the Jewish tradition, if there isn't
8 another tradition of more pro-life that can't be emphasized, or
9 is it true that as far as the teachings of the Jewish faith
10 that you believe pro abortion is a -- is a Jewish --
11 RABBI LABIN: Roger, don't -- I look like -- I'm a
12 mild-manner guy, right?
13 MR. HEDGECOCK: Right.
14 RABBI LABIN: And my ways are the ways of peace,
15 right?
16 MR. HEDGECOCK: Right.
17 RABBI LABIN: I don't go around looking for
18 trouble, but if there's one thing that drives me around the
19 bend is that people think Judaism equals liberalism. Let's
20 make leaps down that road to discover that in 1996, 55 percent
21 of the American Jewish community have Christmas trees. Does
22 that make Christmas a Jewish tradition?
23 MR. HEDGECOCK: Yes, it doesn't.
24 RABBI LABIN: That's nonsense. And the fact that
25 many Jewish organizations come out in favor of abortion rights
26 doesn't in any way make that a Jewish value. That's simply not
27 true. The fact that many Jews believe that way is because
28 many, many Jews are far more committed to liberalism as their
1 religion than Judaism.
2 MR. HEDGECOCK: So secular Judaism has occurred, is
3 what you're saying?
4 RABBI LABIN: A momentous and monumental secular
5 Judaism. It's -- but it's changing.
6 MR. HEDGECOCK: Interesting. And do you do a talk
7 show as well? I mean, you have a time on the air, don't you?
8 RABBI LABIN: I sure do.
9 MR. HEDGECOCK: Let's give a little plug for that.
10 Where are you found on the dial? Not around here?
11 RABBI LABIN: Not around here. A show on station
12 KVI in Seattle. And I also have a show on Sunday night out of
13 KVI and we have a growing audience for that one. And that's
14 one of the reason I know that things are really turning
15 around.
16 MR. HEDGECOCK: How do you react to some of the
17 things that have been written and said by Dennis Prager who is
18 in the Los Angeles area and --
19 RABBI LABIN: Well, nonsense, of course. Has his
20 show on KABC and he has been making these arguments for as
long
21 as I have and has been an enormously effective voice and, I
22 think, responsible for part of this tidal change. He's
23 unquestionably had influences on it.
24 MR. HEDGECOCK: Because I think there's more than
25 just Rabbi Labin. In other words, I start hearing a lot of
26 voices.
27 RABBI LABIN: There really are. The days of a lone
28 voice in the wilderness are long gone. It's not like that.
1 MR. HEDGECOCK: We'll look forward to your voice
2 booming through the convention here tonight.
3 RABBI LABIN: Thank you.
4 MR. HEDGECOCK: And we'll be thinking of you as you
5 take the podium at the Republican National Convention ^ bkmk.
6 Thanks, Rabbi Labin, for dropping by.
7 RABBI LABIN: Thank you.
8 MR. HEDGECOCK: Now, directly from a hotel, right,
9 the Hyatt Hotel, with the windows open -- how many other
10 Hyatts in the major markets of the world have openable
11 windows? I don't think they do. I've been in a lot of
12 Hyatts. I don't think they do.
13 By the way, Phil Franken is here. Let's say
14 hello. Phil, let's say hello. No. No. He's talking to the
15 rabbi, that's all right. He doesn't want to be on the radio.
16 Let's say hello to Carol in San Marcos. You're
17 next. Hello.
18 GUEST: I didn't ever think about taxing the meat,
19 but that sounds like a good idea --
20 MR. HEDGECOCK: What?
21 GUEST: Because --
22 MR. HEDGECOCK: Why?
23 GUEST: Well, if they can do it to take care of
24 those people who are injured by cigarettes, why not those
25 people who are injured by consumption of meat?
26 MR. HEDGECOCK: Let me take a couple of different
27 answers to that, Carol, to tell you why not.
28 GUEST: Okay.
18
1 MR. HEDGECOCK: First of all, the majority of
2 dollars taken by us to when we buy alcohol or cigarettes is not
3 used for the medical care of those who are hurt by alcohol and
4 cigarettes. It is used for the salaries of bureaucrats in
5 various government agencies and to grants to nonprofit agencies
6 and to salaries for people who work for those nonprofit
7 agencies. Very little of it actually goes to help the people
8 who are affected.
9 In other words, it's like any other tax. It is
10 taken for the best of reasons, the noblest of motives, from
11 your pocket, from your paycheck, from your work product, and
it
12 is applied to those who are unable to get a job like you have.
13 And Carol, I don't know how much more plain I can make it for
14 you. This is a scam.
15 If the SEC or the FCC or the FDA or any of those
16 regulatory agencies -- I think we ought to have another
17 regulatory agency, the Federal Agency on Government Scams,
18 FAGS, the Federal Agency on Government Scams. And what we're
19 going to do at this action right up there with the FDA is
we're
20 going to have testing of all statements made by government,
21 particularly as it relates to the imposition of new taxes to
22 see whether or not what they're saying -- if you had a new
drug
23 and you went to market and said this drug will grow hair on
the
24 heads of bald men, you'd have to prove that, wouldn't you?
25 GUEST: Yes.
26 MR. HEDGECOCK: Now, if I come to you and say we're
27 going to have a tax on meat because the meat tax is going to
go
28 to serve the medical care of those people who are
irretrievably
1 physically lost because they have dared to eat meat, you'd
2 expect me to actually be truthful, wouldn't you?
3 GUEST: Sure.
4 MR. HEDGECOCK: And if you found out, as the
5 welfare recipients have found out, that less than half the
6 dollars that are supposedly going to the poor go to middle
7 class salaries in welfare bureaucracies, you would say wait a
8 minute, that's a scam, wouldn't you?
9 GUEST: I disagree with that. I work for Welfare.
10 MR. HEDGECOCK: I don't care whether you agree with
11 it or not. There's an absolute study that says if you trickle
12 down the welfare program to the federal, state, county and the
13 poor person coming in the door, less than 50 cents of every
14 dollar allocated at the top of that pyramid ever gets to the
15 bottom.
16 GUEST: Okay.
17 MR. HEDGECOCK: Now, if I had a similar study that
18 said that less than 50 cents of every dollar taken from you as
19 you eat steak actually got to people's medical care ^ bkmk,
20 wouldn't you say that was a scam?
21 GUEST: I don't know.
22 MR. HEDGECOCK: Think about it.
23 We'll be back. I'm Roger Hedgecock. This is KSDO
24 live at the Republican National Convention.
25 (Break.)
26 MR. HEDGECOCK: And we are back live at the
27 Republican National Convention ^ bkmk in our wonderful
28 convention center in gorgeous San Diego. I've been doing this
1 all week. And it sounds like Mr. Cushman from the chamber of
2 commerce is with us in a moment, and we'll be talking more
3 about that. I couldn't be prouder of how San Diego has looked,
4 acted, felt, been seen by, et cetera. It just couldn't be
5 possibly going any better than that. Keep your fingers
6 crossed. Made possible by Pacific Bell ^ bkmk.
7 In any event, I also want to -- we have visitors
8 from all over, and gentlemen, we're going to get to your
9 discussion in a second. But listen to this, the story of Lynn
10 Lucas from Seminole, Oklahoma.
11 Lynn, welcome to the show.
12 LYNN LUCAS: Hello.
13 MR. HEDGECOCK: How are you?
14 LYNN LUCAS: Fine. How are you?
15 MR. HEDGECOCK: What are you folks doing in
16 San Diego from Oklahoma?
17 LYNN LUCAS: Well, we unloaded a load up there. We
18 drive team. We drive truck together.
19 MR. HEDGECOCK: So you came into town with a
20 regular load?
21 LYNN LUCAS: Yes.
22 MR. HEDGECOCK: And then you what, you listen to
23 the show?
24 LYNN LUCAS: Yes, we were listening to the show.
25 We happened to tune into it and we happened to be unloading
26 right there at the fence line.
27 MR. HEDGECOCK: What line is that?
28 LYNN LUCAS: The Mexico/San Diego border fence
1 line.
2 MR. HEDGECOCK: Okay. You so you were down at the
3 border unloading, and what happened?
4 LYNN LUCAS: And we were -- I was doing a
5 commentary on film. We had a video camera with us, and we
6 didn't expect it, but about 14 illegal immigrants came --
7 crawled over the fence line and was crawling on their bellies
8 in the dirt in front of our truck about two hundred yards.
9 MR. HEDGECOCK: Illegals were coming across the
10 line and crawling on the dirt in front of your truck? And you
11 took a videotape of it, didn't you?
12 LYNN LUCAS: Yes, sir.
13 MR. HEDGECOCK: And you got this videotape. Were
14 you surprised when you saw this?
15 LYNN LUCAS: Absolutely shocked.
16 MR. HEDGECOCK: Were the border patrol helping you
17 out?
18 LYNN LUCAS: Actually, they were sitting in the
19 field to our right, and later, we discovered that it's at one
20 of the main headquarters of the border patrol.
21 MR. HEDGECOCK: You were right at the border patrol
22 headquarters and the illegals were crawling across in front of
23 your truck? Now, the border patrol were, of course, right
24 there to stop them, weren't they?
25 LYNN LUCAS: Absolutely.
26 MR. HEDGECOCK: Did they stop them?
27 LYNN LUCAS: They didn't apprehend them; they down
28 surround them, at all.
1 MR. HEDGECOCK: In front of the border patrol
2 office, you saw, while you were unloading your truck, illegals
3 coming across. How many of them?
4 LYNN LUCAS: We count 14 in the film.
5 MR. HEDGECOCK: And you got a film of this, video
6 of this coming right across in front of the border patrol
7 office? You saw border patrol officers?
8 LYNN LUCAS: We did.
9 MR. HEDGECOCK: They didn't do a thing?
10 LYNN LUCAS: Not a thing.
11 MR. HEDGECOCK: So much for Operation Gatekeeper
12 ^ bkmk.
13 LYNN LUCAS: Yes, sir.
14 MR. HEDGECOCK: Lynn, you have now realized with
15 your own eyes what I've been trying to get San Diegans to wake
16 up to a long time. We are under invasion. The Clinton
17 administration is doing zip about it. It's a sham, a piece of
18 propaganda, it's a piece of you-know-what, it is not working.
19 LYNN LUCAS: No, it isn't.
20 MR. HEDGECOCK: And that is a catastrophe. Can I
21 tell you what, can we get the tape? What are you doing on --
22 I wanted to show it on about six different televisions around
23 town.
24 LYNN LUCAS: Well, we've been talking to our
25 attorney, and we would like for America to see this tape.
26 MR. HEDGECOCK: Truckdrivers with attorneys, what
27 is this world coming to?
28 LYNN LUCAS: I don't know.
1 MR. HEDGECOCK: Lynn, yeah, I don't either. By
2 gosh, this is stupid. So you're going to release this tape.
3 Well, tell you what, keep us in mind. We'd love to release it
4 here as well. And we appreciate your being in our town. I'm
5 sorry you had to come to grips so fast and so dramatically with
6 our biggest problem here.
7 LYNN LUCAS: It's -- it's a shocking experience for
8 us, and a few that have viewed the tape, they're staying up all
9 night, 3 o'clock in the morning talking about the tape.
10 They're as shocked as we are.
11 MR. HEDGECOCK: Lynn, thanks very much for joining
12 us. We'll keep in touch with them. I want to get that video,
13 see if we can't get a local station to show this.
14 Now, back to the convention itself. Now we have
15 Steve Cushman, who is on the chamber of commerce and talks
like
16 that -- you've heard me, he talks like this all the time about
17 San Diego, because, of course, they promote San Diego. And now
18 I think San Diego's going to be promoting itself after this
19 convention Steve Cushman, don't you think?
20 STEVE CUSHMAN: Well, I don't think there's any
21 question. Everything is looking good. People are pleased.
22 Over 10,000 people went on our bus system yesterday; not a
late
23 bus.
24 MR. HEDGECOCK: That's the one that you're in
25 charge of. Now, that was the biggest criticism in Atlanta was
26 the bus system was breaking down. And I know you were sweating
27 bullets the week before this thing went down, but it's working
28 okay.
1 STEVE CUSHMAN: Well, I remember being on this show
2 a couple weeks ago and had the great -- Steve, is this going
3 to be no pressure, old pal? I'm happy to tell you one day's
4 behind us and half a day and everything's going real well.
5 We've got 200 volunteers that are helping us run this system.
6 MR. HEDGECOCK: That's great.
7 STEVE CUSHMAN: Without those volunteers, nothing
8 would run.
9 MR. HEDGECOCK: And I'll tell you, it's is -- I
10 haven't met anybody who isn't having a good time, Steve. I'm
11 keeping my fingers crossed and we'll make be a curmudgeon of
12 Jerry Brown.
13 STEVE CUSHMAN: Our dearest friend.
14 MR. HEDGECOCK: There's going to be unhappy
15 people. Other than that, my people are happy.
16 STEVE CUSHMAN: It's amazing. I walked down the
17 bus gates yesterday and welcomed people to San Diego and told
18 people who I was, and I was running the bus system for the
19 chamber oh, you're great, it's the weather that is great.
20 Everything has worked. That's what it's all about. I said
21 when I was on your show. San Diego has already won. It has
22 put us on that stage in the world for ten days. Everybody is
23 saying wonderful things about San Diego and we couldn't be
more
24 pleased.
25 MR. HEDGECOCK: It's kind of an I-told-you-so, but
26 I knew you'd come through in the end because you work good
27 under pressure. The guy who owns 63 car agencies and works
28 good under pressure.
1 STEVE CUSHMAN: I must go to the office and find
2 out what happened because I've been gone for the last three
3 months.
4 MR. HEDGECOCK: You've been out of the office so
5 long, they're selling more cars than ever.
6 Lou Euhler is with us as well from the tax
7 limitation committee and down here, of course, for the
8 convention, president of the committee. Lou, welcome back to
9 the show. We've talked to you very often on the subject of tax
10 limitation and here on this platform and this campaign and
this
11 candidate. That's what they're talking about.
12 LOU EUHLER: It's great to be here.
13 MR. HEDGECOCK: That's what we're talking about is
14 taxes.
15 LOU EUHLER: Let me add, though, a quick kudo for
16 San Diego. When you have a convention, you have to have a lot
17 of security. And given the security requirements, you've all
18 done a good job. So our hats off to you.
19 MR. HEDGECOCK: There's a lot of security. I want
20 to particularly pay attention to the San Diego Police
21 Department. Believe me, this is a police department that had a
22 tremendous number of problems of its own as a very small
police
23 department just in this big city of ours before they were told
24 that all of a sudden the world was going to descend on the
25 city, and they had to cope with that, too. I heard one of them
26 say to the other, "Have a nice 14-hour day," which basically,
I
27 think, summarized where the cops are at.
28 LOU EUHLER: You know, they did a great job, a
1 really, really great job. Part of the great thing is you've
2 apparently recruited a lot of volunteers, very courteous, very
3 effective.
4 MR. HEDGECOCK: Absolutely.
5 So on to the tax details, Lou Euhler, does the Dole
6 tax plan make sense to you?
7 LOU EUHLER: Absolutely. And the addition of
8 Jack Kemp to the team just is frosting on the cake. We have a
9 great team in Congress. We've got to keep that team. And now
10 with the Dole/Kemp team, we've got an opportunity in the White
11 House that is unprecedented. And this is the water shed
12 election. We set a new course over the last couple of years
13 with the new fiscally conservative congress.
14 Now is the time that the American people are going
15 to choose between continued course of downsizing Washington
and
16 sending responsibility back to Main Street and individual
17 families and that sort of thing or increasing the size of
18 Washington. ^ bkmk And I think the plan is putting us in the
19 right direction to keep downsizing Washington.
20 MR. HEDGECOCK: And I think the testament to the
21 motive you're describing is our incumbent presidency being
22 chameleonlike, trying to turn himself into the tax cutter
after
23 being the biggest tax increaser 16 months ago. Very amazing.
24 LOU EUHLER: Let me say I've worked with Bob Dole
25 directly and personally over the years, and he's gone into the
26 states to get a balanced budget amendment. So I know from
27 personal experience his commitment to his -- to a smaller
28 Washington.
1 MR. HEDGECOCK: I wish you would have twisted Mark
2 Hatfield's arm a little bit when we came within one vote of
3 having the balanced budget amendment through ^ bkmk, that was a
4 very disappointing movement. I think we discussed it.
5 LOU EUHLER: Of course, I'm not shedding many tears
6 because it was not an amendment that we think would have been
7 particularly good for the future of America because it would
8 have led to an incentive to increase taxes to balance the
9 budget.
10 MR. HEDGECOCK: In order to balance the budget,
11 yes.
12 LOU EUHLER: I think we can do better than that.
13 And with the new and expanded Congress and control of the
White
14 House, I think we have a chance to do that.
15 MR. HEDGECOCK: Well, Lou Euhler, I think it was a
16 delight to see that. And we'll be talking about issues and
17 they do come up.
18 And my friend Steve Cushman, you have -- how many
19 portable phones are hooked to your belt right now ^ bkmk?
20 STEVE CUSHMAN: Only four, Roger.
21 MR. HEDGECOCK: Only -- this man is walking around
22 with four --
23 STEVE CUSHMAN: Only four.
24 MR. HEDGECOCK: -- mobile phones on his belt. I
25 mean, nobody at the OK corral is more dangerous than you.
26 STEVE CUSHMAN: None of them work, Roger. They're
27 all for show.
28 MR. HEDGECOCK: I've heard them all ringing. I'm
1 surprised they aren't ringing.
2 STEVE CUSHMAN: I've turned them off.
3 MR. HEDGECOCK: Thank you.
4 Let's get to the phones with Christina from
5 La Mesa.
6 Christina, hello.
7 GUEST: Yes, hello.
8 MR. HEDGECOCK: Hello. How are you?
9 GUEST: I'm great, actually. Thank you. Thank
10 you.
11 MR. HEDGECOCK: Good.
12 GUEST: So you want to hear my big beef, huh? I
13 wanted a wall at the border like the Berlin wall. I was
14 listening to the lady who just called in.
15 MR. HEDGECOCK: Yep.
16 GUEST: The reporter or whatever she was.
17 MR. HEDGECOCK: No. Lynn was a truck driver.
18 GUEST: A truck driver, okay. I didn't get what
19 she was saying.
20 MR. HEDGECOCK: She was unloading her truck at the
21 border, illegals are streaming by them, and right by the
border
22 patrol office, the border patrol officers are standing there
23 and no one apprehends the illegals. That is the reality and
24 the truth in a snapshot about what is happening.
25 GUEST: It's sick. It's totally sick. We need a
26 wall or something to keep all these illegal -- I won't say the
27 Mex- -- M words, the illegals, people that are not here or
28 should not be here that are getting all of our benefits that
1 are doing everything -- they get everything that we should have
2 as American citizens that are born in this country. I'm sick
3 of it. I'm totally sick of it. And I called yesterday and I
4 was having a frenzy and I was calling too late so they had me
5 call back today.
6 MR. HEDGECOCK: Well, I'm glad you did. Now you
7 vented. Just one question on kind of a medical plane, do you
8 feel better?
9 GUEST: Maybe. Maybe.
10 MR. HEDGECOCK: Maybe?
11 GUEST: Maybe a little bit. I don't know. If
12 something gets solved, yes. I mean, I've had medical problems
13 my whole life, and whenever I have tried to turn to our
14 government for some kind of help, I have been turned away my
15 whole entire life ^ bkmk.
16 MR. HEDGECOCK: So you haven't gotten a thing from
17 this government?
18 GUEST: No, I haven't gotten anything. I've never
19 gotten any help. I finally now just received my Social
20 Security disability, but that took me almost ten months to
21 receive that. And I'm sitting here looking at all these
22 Mexicans -- ^ bkmk.
23 MR. HEDGECOCK: What are you disabled for?
24 GUEST: I have diabetes. Then I've got real
25 chronic asthma and it's taken me off work for a while. I've
26 also lost my eye, so I've got a prosthesis. And I've had a lot
27 of problems.
28 MR. HEDGECOCK: Yes.
1 GUEST: And so everyone's always turned their back
2 on me. And I have all these people who don't even speak
3 English and they get whatever they want. So it has to be told.
4 MR. HEDGECOCK: I understand the source of your
5 frustration.
6 GUEST: Uh-huh.
7 MR. HEDGECOCK: Thanks very much for calling. I
8 appreciate it.
9 Let's take a break right now. Lots of callers
10 lining up.
11 (Break.)
12 MR. HEDGECOCK: Actually, we do have a camera, the
13 CU-SeeMe. CU-SeeMe. On our web page, we'll get to that in a
14 moment ^ bkmk.
15 We're back at the Republican National Convention
16 ^ bkmk. 560-1130 is our phone number. We have two more
17 students from the University of California. George Oliver is
18 here from Huntsville, Texas, is here.
19 GEORGE OLIVER: Hi.
20 MR. HEDGECOCK: How are you?
21 GEORGE OLIVER: I'm fine.
22 MR. HEDGECOCK: Where is Huntsville at?
23 GEORGE OLIVER: Seventy miles north of Houston.
24 MR. HEDGECOCK: Hot out there, you think?
25 GEORGE OLIVER: Oh, probably.
26 MR. HEDGECOCK: Probably. And Lauren -- help me
27 out with -- "Kageharo"?
28 LAUREN KAGEHARO: "Kageharo."
1 MR. HEDGECOCK: Lauren Kageharo is here.
2 And you're from where?
3 LAUREN KAGEHARO: Berkeley, California.
4 MR. HEDGECOCK: And from Berkeley, California.
5 Now, how did you, Lauren, hear about this program?
6 LAUREN KAGEHARO: They sent a brochure to my
7 cousin. He's into debate and stuff, so he's interested in this
8 kind of stuff. And he couldn't go. He gave it to me.
9 MR. HEDGECOCK: Why did he think you'd be
10 interested?
11 LAUREN KAGEHARO: Because I like writing. I don't
12 know anything about politics or anything.
13 MR. HEDGECOCK: So what have you been learning?
14 LAUREN KAGEHARO: A lot. Everything they told me,
15 I never heard of before. I didn't even recognize most of the
16 delegates. I follow George around.
17 MR. HEDGECOCK: George, you're into politics?
18 GEORGE OLIVER: Yes, I am.
19 MR. HEDGECOCK: You're following this a little more
20 closely?
21 GEORGE OLIVER: Oh, yes I am.
22 MR. HEDGECOCK: That's why you're here, because
23 you're into politics?
24 GEORGE OLIVER: Yes.
25 MR. HEDGECOCK: What have you heard that you
26 liked?
27 GEORGE OLIVER: I haven't heard enough to base an
28 opinion.
1 MR. HEDGECOCK: But you're listening?
2 GEORGE OLIVER: Yes, I am.
3 MR. HEDGECOCK: What kind of activity do you enjoy
4 the most here?
5 GEORGE OLIVER: What do I -- well, I like walking
6 around and seeing the different people right over here.
7 MR. HEDGECOCK: And you're telling Lauren who it
8 is.
9 GEORGE OLIVER: Yeah.
10 MR. HEDGECOCK: That's Dick Army, that's
11 Steve Forbes, that kind of stuff, that's what you're doing?
12 GEORGE OLIVER: Yes, sir.
13 MR. HEDGECOCK: You guys are having fun, aren't
14 you?
15 GEORGE OLIVER: Yes.
16 MR. HEDGECOCK: That's what it's all about. Soak
17 it up. I went to my first one when I was about 17 and it was a
18 lot of fun to do, and I remember it to this day. So Lauren and
19 George, I'm glad you're here in San Diego. Welcome and have
20 fun. All right? Thanks very much.
21 560-1130 our phone number. We'd like to take some
22 calls.
23 Roger in downtown. Sounds like me.
24 GUEST: Hello, Roger.
25 MR. HEDGECOCK: Yes. Roger.
26 GUEST: "Roger, roger." I heard that so much
27 during World War II, I thought they were going to launch me.
28 You heard about two years ago the City Council
1 adopted a Speak San Diego campaign, and what we need is
2 some volunteers to put -- to really launch it and put it
3 into --
4 MR. HEDGECOCK: What is Speak San Diego?
5 GUEST: -- immediate action.
6 MR. HEDGECOCK: What is Speak San Diego?
7 GUEST: It's just what it says. It doesn't say --
8 explain it too much, but it means that when you -- when you are
9 out for a walk or you're going somewhere, say hello.
10 MR. HEDGECOCK: Say hello?
11 GUEST: Yeah, say hello.
12 MR. HEDGECOCK: That sounds like a good idea.
13 GUEST: I did that to you yesterday and you said
14 hello and shook my hand.
15 MR. HEDGECOCK: There you go. Were you in the
16 convention yesterday?
17 GUEST: No. I was -- you were on your way to --
18 that boat trip yesterday, and you walked by and I heard you a
19 couple times and I said I got to -- I got to say hello to this
20 guy because he's right on.
21 MR. HEDGECOCK: Yes, I appreciate that, Roger.
22 GUEST: You're really great. In fact, I had to
23 wait for you on this program, and it was interesting.
24 MR. HEDGECOCK: I'm glad you did.
25 GUEST: I liked waiting for you.
26 MR. HEDGECOCK: I'm glad you had fun.
27 GUEST: I did.
28 MR. HEDGECOCK: I'll tell you --
1 GUEST: I know how to get more people to have fun,
2 Roger, that is to volunteer to welcome our visitors and just
3 smile and say hello. So I'm having a meeting at 7 o'clock
4 tonight at the Jolly Roger Restaurant. They're so willing to
5 accommodate people and explain what you're to do. Then also at
6 10 o'clock tomorrow morning at Jolly Roger at Seaport Village,
7 and we're going to launch it. George Stefanopolous ^ bkmk is
8 coming down because that was his pet project, installing that
9 proclamation a couple years ago, Speak San Diego.
10 MR. HEDGECOCK: Well, good for you. And I
11 appreciate -- appreciate the call my friend.
12 Roger in downtown there. 560-1130 our phone
13 number.
14 Bill Horne joining us here at the KSDO front lines.
15 BILL HORNE: Good afternoon, Roger.
16 MR. HEDGECOCK: How are you?
17 BILL HORNE: Good. I just got through listening to
18 the governor with his limited voice welcoming people to the
19 delegation.
20 MR. HEDGECOCK: This is the second day. He's still
21 welcoming people.
22 BILL HORNE: He's still in town and still welcoming
23 us.
24 MR. HEDGECOCK: That's a good sign, right?
25 BILL HORNE: That is a good sign. I stood there
26 looking like a dummy for a while and I did get to -- thank
27 you, I did get who it was.
28 MR. HEDGECOCK: Bill Horne. I pressed him, are you
1 endorsing Dole/Kemp for president in 1996 and vice-president,
2 and he said -- he kind of did this, well, yeah, I am. Kind of
3 reluctantly drew him out, but he finally said it in so many
4 words.
5 BILL HORNE: Well, we got some good shots of you
6 and Jimmy Valentine there edging your way through the crowd.
7 MR. HEDGECOCK: Trying to play reporter, for crying
8 out loud.
9 BILL HORNE: This morning, we went across the
10 street and demonstrated in a very civil, organized way.
11 MR. HEDGECOCK: You went to the demonstration park
12 and became part of the demonstrators?
13 BILL HORNE: I gave my "let's reform the
14 environmental species" speech and found out that BLM ^ bkmk
has
15 ten million acres in California.
16 MR. HEDGECOCK: And it ain't enough.
17 BILL HORNE: And those rights don't need another
18 inch as far as I'm concerned.
19 MR. HEDGECOCK: And here you are protesting over
20 there. They must have been --
21 BILL HORNE: I did it very civilly.
22 MR. HEDGECOCK: Some of those people must have been
23 wide eyed at that kind of a conservative demonstration.
24 BILL HORNE: It was very -- we were civilized. We
25 just wanted to get our point across. We had Ed -- I wonder
26 what the heck is his last name? The guy from Poway who lost
27 his land.
28 MR. HEDGECOCK: Ed Malone. I know who you mean.
1 BILL HORNE: Ed Malone lost 500 acres of his land.
2 He can only use 2 acres.
3 MR. HEDGECOCK: Ed Malone, he was a developer.
4 I've known him for years. And he finally quit that in
5 disgust. He went into the ranching, farming kind of thing
6 because he had that land up there.
7 BILL HORNE: Here's Howard Seally from Fallbrook
8 right here.
9 MR. HEDGECOCK: And now he's getting hassled by the
10 same government. He can't -- he can't escape. Poor Malone.
11 He's been at this for years fighting -- Ben Nighthorse
Campbell
12 ^ bkmk, he's in there riding a motorcycle.
13 BILL HORNE: That's right.
14 MR. HEDGECOCK: He's still riding.
15 We'll come back on KSDO live from the Republican
16 National Convention ^ bkmk.
1 MR. HEDGECOCK: An